Hi Shizu!

Thanks for explanation! Would the following oversimplication be on the right track.

miraremasu & (raremasu-like verbs in general):
'seen by', 'can see' in situations where it's not entirely to do with ability but more feelings and opinions like 'Yea, I guess I can see the game on Friday' and 'Look! You can see the view from here.'

or no, I'm totally wrong and the best way to understand it is accumulate usage experience?

wen

Hi!

Shizu san, I was reading this topic and I have a question too. I hope you don't mind if I ask.

QUOTE:
I can see the game in the dark.
kurayami no geemu ga miemasu.
= I find the game is playing in the dark.

You can see the game in the dark.
kurayami de, geemu ga miraremasu.
= anata wa, kurayami de geemu o miremasu/miraremasu.

Why doesn't the second sentence have miemasu too? Isn't there a difference in the meaning this way?

QUOTE:
miraremasu & (raremasu-like verbs in general):

Wen san, I believe there are two kinds of raremasu in Japanese. One is emasu/raremasu while the other is remasu/raremasu, isn't it?

Hi guys,

This form "-emasu" is not so simple , and one reason is because you have to change the form depending on the verb (the group).
Group 1: kaku (write)

(1) the potencial form - kakeru
watashi wa, nihon go ga kakeru.
I can write Japanese (language).

You can replace a"kakeru" and "kaku koto ga dekiru".
watashi wa, nihon go o kaku koto ga dekiru.
I can write Japanese (language).

(2) the passive voice - kakareru
sono bun wa, hiragana de kakareru.
The sentence is written in hiragana.

Group 2: taberu (eat)

(1) the potencial form - tabereru/taberareru
watashi wa, nandemo tabereru/taberareru.
I can eat anything.
= watashi wa, nandemo taberu koto ga dekiru.

Note: we used to bee tought the correct form is "tabeRARERU", and "tabeRERU" was wrong. But user of the latter form increased, and after all it was acknowledged as the correct one. Personally, however, I don't like the latter way, and lots of us (maybe older people) prefer the former one like "tabeRARERU" still now. At any rate, both forms are used commonly now.

(2) the passive voice - taberareru
sono okashi wa, neko ni taberareta.
The sweets (or snacks) were eaten by a cat.

And there are some Japanese verbs which are more complicated when thinking from English: miru (this belongs to the group 2)

(1) the potencial form - mireru/mirareru
anata wa, kurayami de geemu o mireru/mirareru.
You can see the game in the dark.
= ana ta wa, kurayami de geemu o miru koto ga dekiru.

Above three expressions (mireru, mirareru and miru koto ga dekiru) are used as the same meaning, but the second one "mirareru" i snot used too much as compared with other two, I think. Maybe it's because it's used as the passive form more commonly.

(2) passive voice - mirareru
kinou no yoru, watashi wa yuurei ni mirereta.
Last night I was seen by a ghost.

But "mirareru" is used for some expressions, especially when you think from translated English.

kurayami de, geemu ga mirareru.
You can see the game in the dark.

I translated this as "you can...", but the "mirareru" in this sentence doesn't express the ability of your eyes. The most important thing in the sentence is "the game in the dark", and you don't need to think about the subject (actually it's omitted). I adopted "you" because the sentence needs a subject in English, but you can regard it as other person(s) or existence like a cat. Or possibly you can think the sentence as:
kurayami de, geemu ga mirareru.
The game is held/played in the dark.

My English might not be natural, but anyway what I want to say is we don't need to think about the audiences of the game. Possibly nobody is curious about the game, but the game is played anyway, and the "mirareru" indicates that the game is not held in secret. Another example:

haru niwa, sakura no hana ga achikochi de mirareru.
You can see cherry blossoms here and there in spring.
= In spring there are cherry blossoms here and there.

Another meaning of "mirareru":

watashi wa, yoku henna hito ni mirareru.
I'm often regarded as an odd person.

Well, this became long, and I don't know the limit on this forum. So, in the meantime I'll post this here, and I'll do again later.

Shizu

Hi again!

I'd like to describe about another potencial form of the verb "miru": mieru

watashi wa, kurayami de monoga mieru.
I can see objects in the dark.
= watashi wa, kurayami de mono o miru koto ga dekiru.

When you describe about the ability of your eyes physically, using "mieru" is much common than doing "mireru", I think. Here is an example by Wen-san.

Look! You can see the view from here.
hora! koko kara keshiki ga mieru yo.

"Mieru" is used when your eyes catch something in front of you, and it expresses also your opinion not only the simple fact depending on the situation.

Zone-san asked:
> You can see the game in the dark.
> kurayami de, geemu ga miraremasu.
> = anata wa, kurayami de geemu o miremasu/miraremasu.
>
> Why doesn't the second sentence have miemasu too? Isn't there a difference in the
> meaning this way?

If the subject is "I", you can say "miemasu", too. But it's "you" here, and "anata wa miemasu" is a little strange as Japanese. You can say so if you are a magician or a doubtful doctor, lol, but generally we don't say "anata wa mieru" too much unless you have an intention to encourage someone like your friend for example. But you can say "anata wa miru koto ga dekiru (you can see)", and maybe it's because this expression can describe your physical ability more clearly rather than using "mieru". Both of "mieru" and "miru koto ga dekiru" are used as the potencial expression, but "miru koto ga dekiru" works more limitedly and simply, I think. Actually "koto ga dekiru" is used as a written expression rather than conversational.

Some usages of mieru:

(1) can expect or imagine:
watashi niwa, kono hanashi no saki ga mieru.
I can expect the progress of this story.

(2) find
kurayami de geemu o shite iru no ga miemasu.
I find the game is playing in the dark.

(3) ... no you ni mieru - look like...
sono josei wa, dansei no you ni mieru.
The woman looks like a man.

Does it mean that I can answer your questions?

Shizu

Shizuさん、ありがとうございます。
今、説明がだいぶ分かると思います。

QUOTE:
watashi wa, yoku henna hito ni mirareru.
I'm often regarded as an odd person.

Can it also mean: Odd persons see me often. ?

QUOTE:
Note: we used to bee tought the correct form is "tabeRARERU", and "tabeRERU" was wrong. But user of the latter form increased, and after all it was acknowledged as the correct one.

In books and online explanations they usually say taberareru instead of tabereru. The latter is not even mentioned at many places.
I have a Japanese grammar book, where this is mentioned, and it says the short -reru is only used in very informal situations. Is that true?

Zoneさん、こんばんは。

Please let me correct your Japanese sentence:
> 今、説明がだいぶ分かると思います。
This should be:
今、説明がだいぶ分かったと思います。

In Japanese, the actual tense is often ignored. Like above example, we sometimes express as the past tense even though we refer to present state.

as for "reru" and "rareru", the form like "tabereru" is used quite commonly. It was acknowledged as a correct one since years ago as I mentioned, and the person who uses this form uses this any time regardless of the situation, it seems. Personally I don't want to accept this, and tend to use another expression to avoid using it. But this is my personal taste and opinion simply, and I can't blame you even though you use it, lol.

Shizu